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|Forums: Index → Watercooler → Vasto Lorde||Post|
Ok,I'm Confused.Toshiro said that Vasto Lorde are stronger than Captain level Shinigami,but Arrancar are stronger than them, However,Renji,Rukia,Rangiku,Ikkaku,Yumichika,Shihei,Izuru,Soifon's Vise-Captain(I haven't bother remembering his name,cuz he sucks)have all fought and beaten a Arrancar,Some of them beat two! and not a single one of them are Captain class.So are Vasto Lorde weaker than Arrancar,but Stronger than Shinigami? Please explain it.
gohanRULEZ 04:37, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
Simple, no one ever said arrancar are more powerful then a vasto lorde. Arrancar are by the nature of what they are more powerful then a shinigami in that they have access to potentially more power, but that still does not guarantee that they are more powerful then a shinigami, they can obviously hold their own in a fight though. Arrancar are totally not part of the evolution of a hollow and a vasto lorde is the pinnacle of hollow evolution. Technically speaking a vasto lorde could become an arrancar, but an arrancar couldnt become a vasto lorde because In becoming an arrancar hollows lose their ability to continue to evolve (the exception being the 9th espada, as it was explained by him to rukia). So vasto lorde are stronger then captain-level shingiami but their relation in power to arrancar is totally not gaugeable at this point. But most likely vasto lorde maybe of equal or more power then an arrancar.Salubri 05:22, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
I understand it(To a point) But to fully Get it,I think I should watched the Fight Between Rukia and the Ninth Espada(who's name I forgot ^^;) Thanks for the help!!
gohanRULEZ 07:24, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
arrancar are a side step in a hallow evolution. it grants them great power but they lose there ability to evolve (with the exception of no.9 as stated above.)
if a basic hallow were to turn into a arrancar say by the Hōgyoku it would be 10 times more power. but if a casto lord would be turn it would also be 10 times more powerful beating out a captain class in a banki form. but that all depends on the hallow changing. (note the times 10 is basied off a the banki: According to Yoruichi Shihōin, the power of Bankai typically increases a Shinigami's power by a factor of ten. true power change has yet to be stated.)
jasonvigo 20:35, 11 April 2009 (EST)
Well actually it never is stated how powerful an arrancar is but, its said that because its getting spiritual energy from both sides as a normal hollow as well as gaining power similar to that of a shinigami that an arrancar is more powerful then any one of those parts are separate. So yes its stated that bankai increases the power of shinigami by a factor of 10 but thats compared to other shinigami who dont know their bankai, not to any other class. So while a normal hollow turned arrancar could give a normal shinigami a run for their money they can be outclassed by higher seated shinigmai (as has been shown) regardless of the power increase. Its pure speculation on are parts what a vasto lorde would be like, as we know its supposedly more powerful then a shinigami captain the type of increase in power of turning into an arrancar would be great but we havent seen what would happen as of yet. Other then the bankai normal power advancement comment i wouldnt expect any understanding of power levels or nothing like that seeing as the series doesnt seem to deal in that type of classification when it comes to individuals, as they all seem to have room for potential advancement in power. Salubri 02:31, 12 April 2009 (UTC)
If you are reffering to Grimmjow's attack on Kurakara, the Soul Reapers were only using 20% of their strength. Now the Espada definetly fight at the level of Captain.
Vasto Lorde are created by a hollow eating other hollows. If a vasto lorde were the eat another vasto lorde could they become even most powerful.FlaminghorseDecember 8, 2009 (UTC)
I'm already confused... Halibel was a vasto lorde. Some arrancar is possibly weaker than a lt. and lts. are weaker than a captain. And according to hitsu-kun vasto lorde's combat abilities surpass those of the average captain in Gotei 13. Then why did Halibel almost lose to a adjuchas hollow turned arrancar by aizen?? in the past chapter, most of the arrancar were killed by a lt. some of this arrancar were former adjuchas and some espada most possibly the 8th,7th,6th and maybe the 5th who were a former adjuchas were defeated by a captain. Why is that halibel been defeated by an arrancar that was a former adjuchas if her combat abilities surpass those of a captain???? really confusing... Frostymoon August 20, 2010 (UTC)
I think I've found your problem. It isn't that ALL Arrancar are more powerful than VLs. It's just that, say, if a Vasto Lorde became an Arrancar, he/she/it would gain even more power. So if a really powerful Adjuchas became an Arrancar, he/she/it would become as strong as a VL. Get it? The same way Hollowification works for Shinigami, Shinigamification a.k.a. becoming an Arrancar gives a power boost. And the same way a Vizard (Hollowified Shinigami) can put on their mask/ in case of Tosen, use Resurreccion, Arrancar can 'release' their Zanpakuto. BlazeUchiha (Talk) 12:04, August 20, 2010 (UTC)
Actually to be clear the issue here is one of power. Harribel was a Vasto Lorde by the very nature of being an Arrancar that one she fought was more powerful then her. This makes what Hitsugaya previously stated not all that accurate as even when a Vasto Lorde class Menos became an Arrancar they didn't pose as much of a threat as he seemed to think they would. To be honest most of his information is second hand as if he was getting it from a textbook rather then actual experience. Seeing the power Harribel had as a Hollow is enough to note that if she faced Hitsugaya as a Vasto Lorde the fight wouldn't have last half as long as it did. So yes it is that an Arrancar is more powerful then a Vasto Lorde that much is clear regardless of the justification an arrancar will always be an arrancar they cant turn it off. yes it true that because of there existence as hollows that gain shinigami like powers they have more power. But that point is that Vasto Lorde have been given a special position as being a sort of pinnacle of power after Hitsugaya's words now they are not so much a danger. Even as Vasto-lorde Arrancar they are somewhat less powerful then ones imagination would have thought. Salubri (Talk) 14:42, August 20, 2010 (UTC)
Actually, I think Hitsugaya was perfectly accurate in his description. However, his statement was simply taken out of context and accepted literally. Let's take a step back and see the context in which he said it. He was trying to impress on Ichigo the urgency of the situation. As a result he outlined a hypothetical situation that never came to pass. At no point did ten Vasto Lorde face the Gotei 13 together. In addition, if we assume that Hitsugaya was only thinking of the Gotei 13 when he said that 10 Vasto Lorde could destroy Soul Society, then we also have to assume that he was thinking of the Gotei 13 with 10 captains with 12 vice-captains + 2 seated officers from the 11th who are known to be vice-captain level vs 10 Vasto Lordes. If that was the case, it is very likely that he dismiseed the 12 vice-captains + 2 seated officers from the 11th who are known to be vice-captain level because under normal circumstances, vice-captains are not matches for the vasto lorde. So he was thinking 10 captain vs 10 vasto lorde and he was thinking that some of those captains would not be able to win against the vasto lorde and that other captains would then have to fight multiple vasto lordes and as a result, there is a good chance that a good number of captains would end-up dead.
What actually happened, was that FOUR vasto lordes faced 6 captains + 4 vizards captains + 4 vizard lieutenants + Omaeda. Of the three, Harribel survived Hitsugaya's ultimate attack, sure she had to be freed by Wonderweiss and I am in the camp that says that if Wonderweiss hadn't turned-up we would have a frozen shark on our hands but she did survive it. Barragan survived a direct hit from Soifon's bankai, yes the first time he mitigated the damage and he might have also mitigated the damage the second time but he did survive it. Starrk took on two vizard captains with shikai + mask and survived. He also held his own against Ukitake and Kyoraku together. Granted, there is a good chance that if Wonderweiss hadn't showed-up, Starrk would have been defeated but Starrk was fighting at par with two captains in Shikai. Wonderweiss got taken out by Yama-jii but seems to have defeated Kensei, a vizard captain with bankai (who knows if he pulled his mask on or not) but being taken out by Yama-jii with a special hakuda attack is in itself a great honour because it is Yama-jii we are talking about.
The problem here is that people expected Vasto Lordes to rake-up a body count of Gotei 13 captains. I am even hearing complaints that Aizen wouldn't have to one-shot so many Gotei 13 captains if the Espada had been allowed to take out some Gotei 13 captains. However, on the other side of the coin, people like poor Hitsugaya is being declared weak because "his ultimate attack didn't leave a scratch on Harribel" not to mention that there are still people who think Harribel freed herself from the ice, despite the manga making it clear that Wonderweiss freed her. So this is the problem facing Kubo. He showed clearly that the Gotei 13 and Vizards had to struggle to win against the Espada + Wonderweiss. To me that is a testament to their power. Because Vasto Lorde arrancar or not, they were greatly outnumbered by opponents that worked together. Came to each others aid, when the Espada were more or less on their own. Wonderweiss was the only re-enforcement and the only assistance they were going to get if they were in trouble. So from my point of view, taking everything into account, the Espada did well against the odds they faced. The Gotei 13 + Vizards struggled appropriately but did win in the end. Hitsugaya wasn't necessarily wrong in his assessment. The Gotei 13 just never faced ten vasto lorde on their own. The Vizards turned the tide of battle, in Fake Karakura. Who knows how things would have gone down if they hadn't showed-up. I have always believed the top three to be Vasto Lordes and the how the battles played out made sense to me and nothing that's happened invalidated with Hitsugaya said and if you think about it, think of everything that happened in Fake Karakura, you'll realise that I am right. The Arrancarised Vasto Lordes weren't weak. It's jut really hard fighting against a group that presents an united front when you yourself are something of a lone-ranger. Only someone ultra powerful like Aizen could win in a situation like that. Tinni (Talk) 00:52, August 21, 2010 (UTC)
Tinni is right. While I would of preferred a more sanquine victory for the Gotei 13 there is no doubt the top 3 Espada made them work for it.
In open battle Starrk effectively won against no less than FOUR captain class opponents, two of them elder captains and the others empowered Vizards. It took a bushwack and a bizarre Shikai to bring Starrk down.
Barragan was playing cat & mouse with his opposition (two captain level and one lieutenant level shinigami) and it was obvious they were overmatched. Only the actions of a quickthinking Vizard sorceror turning Barragan's power against himself allowed them victory. Otherwise they were dead meat.
Harribel fought her opponents (a captain class shinigami and two Vizards) to stalemate.Its true she needed help to escape one of her enemy's attacks but she was also the lowest ranked Espada on the battlefield. She was betrayed by her own side before she finally fell.
Lets not sugercoat this and make it seem like this was simple. The concept you bring is well the Gotei 13 had more allies and soldiers. True they did but they didn't join up as a group and dog pile the top 3 Esapda. These were one on one battles with few exceptions.
1.) Starrk was fighting Shunsui who was holding back most of the fight then they got serious and Starrk released. Ukitake stepped in and they were still fighting with no visible winner. Wonderweiss came now Starrks on top, through sheer numbers via his soul separation he beats up Love and Rose a bit, nothing serious and Shunsui comes back finishes him off with relative ease. Did the Vizards go all out no and Shunsui ended him with a Shikai, so was it an impressive showing for the vasto lorde turned arrancar no. Was he weak ok no but in comparison to Shunsui he apparently had no chance. He fought a total of 4 captain-level combatants and only gained a real upper hand on Rose and Love, he didn't defeat them. He didn't take out Ukitake and Shunsui wasn't put down by him either.
2.) Baraggan has the upper through most of the fight. Soifon uses bankai and its sidelined by his powers. Hachi comes uses a bunch of barriers and soifon hits him almost point blank and injury, Baraggan gets mad uses more Respira and Hachi uses his own power against him. This is by far the only fight of note thats reminiscent of what was expected of someone of his level especially after arrancarfication. Baraggan though the most dangerous didn't defeat anyone either.
3.) Harribel why seemingly having the upper hand and then upon equal footing with Hitsugaya then he pulls out the fact that his power is more powerful and diverse. Now without dismissing the power he used and without saying it was thee finisher and saying it was a finisher, she got free with assistance. Which had nothing to do with her skill or power. If the anime is any indication of her power she had no water manipulation so she would have died quick as a simple vasto lorde against Hitsugaya. Yes she was more of a challenge for him but there is no doubt who had the upper hand at the point the battle turned on her. Harribel didn't defeat anyone and by time she escaped the frozen prison she was playing defense until Aizen killed her.
Point being if we given indication to average vasto lorde they are not the hyped versions that fans portrayed them to be in their imaginations. While the most powerful of hollows and possible danger to captains they are few in number and by all accounts not as dangerous as their arrancar counterparts who seemed to have brought more of a challenge to the battle. Ill concede the point of Hitsugaya's words they were plausible to the scenario he had constructed based on the information Soul Society had. If such a concept is true is yet to be seen and probably never will be. Though the amount of pressure placed on vasto lorde to deliver something they probably were never meant to because people took Hitsugaya's explanation as meaning they are the most powerful beings in the bleach universe can finally be put to rest. --Salubri (Talk) 03:32, August 21, 2010 (UTC)
1. Love and Rose both ended up with their masks blasted off and barely able to stand while Starrk moved in for the "finishing blow" (his words). I can't realistically call this "nothing serious". It was only Shunsui's intervention that saved them. Your right about Ukitake being taken out by another Arrancar but Shunsui was still put down hard when Starrk shot him from behind when he was distracted. Though he did recover quickly enough to save Love and Rose. All in all this fight wasn't a shining moment for shinigami captains. Starrk was barely inconvenienced by their attacks until Shunsui's shikai's weird games.
2. You are arguing details but this doesn't essentially disagree with my original description of the fight.
3. I already noted that Harribel needed assistance to escape so your not saying anything new there. But I'll agree that Hitsugaya won that fight. However Hitsugaya was straining mightily and using untried techniques as desperation moves to overcome Harribel. Before that she was chasing him all over the battlefield because he couldn't find an edge. He was in real danger of dying despite the powers of his zanpakto or how evenly they were matched. As far as Harribel as a Vasto Lorde lacking water powers, I wouldn't know. Maybe she didn't use those powers for the same reason shinigami captains were refusing to use their bankais against powerful opponents like Starrk or Aizen. The manga/anime doesn't always show its characters powers being used sensibly.
I Agree with Salubri. A similar miscalculation like this happened when Ichigo met his first Menos Grande and Rukia said only the Royal Special Task Force could handle a Menos Grande and no single Soul Reaper could take it down. Then, later you see that almost everyone can kill a Menos Grande while Ichigo could only damage one. So, it is the same with the Vasto Lordes.ADhype421 (talk) 11:46, August 21, 2010 (UTC)
- In perfect honestly, everybody can't kill a Menos and certainly a Shinigami who doesn't have shikai (at the time Ichigo didn't have Shikai and just had a bloated puffy sword full of nothing) cannot take down a Menos. So Ichigo only damaging the Menos was a great feat for him at the time. In addition, another way of looking at what Rukia said is that outlined Soul Society procedure and a "Royal Special Task Force" may just be the name given to the the force, which may consist of one or more vice-captains or just a vice-captain or even a captain, who is dispatched to deal with a menos under normal circumstances. For example, here in Australia we have "Royal commissions". That doesn't mean the Queen or the Governer-general as her representative is the only person who can call a "Royal commission" or that anyone involved in the "Royal commission" is actually "royalty" or anything like that. It's just a name we have for inquires, even when they are into mundain things like petrol price gouging. So, you can argue that "Royal Special Task Force" is simply a name Soul Society assigns to the Shinigami or group of Shinigami whom they dispatch to deal with a Menos. It may consist of a Vice-captain or higher class Shinigami or it might just be a group of seated officer. However, what we are talking about here is Soul Society procedure. NOT who can kill a Menos Grande. As for who can kill a Menos Grande, no an average shinigami cannot kill a Menos Grande. Even a seated officer would have issues killing a Menos not necessarily because of the power of a Menos but their size. Size is a BIG reason people get skittish around Menos Grande.
- In other words, there are two ways to read any event in the past Bleach chapters. Method 1, knowing that Kubo writes the story on the fly, you can say he at the time said something that he couldn't carry through without causing too much disruption in the plotting to abandoned it. Method 2, as the story progresses, you can re-evaluate what was said in the past and try to fit it into the unfolding narrative. I choose to follow the second method and try to think why did the person say what they said back then? What were they thinking? What in-story explanation is their for their word and action? Besides which, here's something else. When I went to check the chapter where Hitsugaya makes his infamous declaration (Ch 197, page 17), the first translation I checked had it as, "If Aizen has more then 10 Arrancar at Vasto Lorde Level, Soul Society is doomed". Now Viz did translate his words different but wouldn't it be funny if all the Vasto Lorde hype happened because of a mistranslation! ^.^ Tinni (Talk) 12:25, August 21, 2010 (UTC)
- I had always surmised that Hitsugaya wasn't so much stressing the threat of the Vasto Lordes because of their individual power, but rather the power they would have as a group. Given what we know so far, for a moment let's assume that roughly half of the Espada were indeed Vasto Lorde-class Menos. Together with Aizen and company, I am pretty sure that 10 (or more) Vasto Lordes could have wiped the floor with the Gotei 13. The top three Espada were enough of a hassle, requiring multiple captain-level Shinigami to defeat them, a numerical advantage they wouldn't have had if the Espada came in greater numbers. For example, if even just Ulquiorra had came along, how much would things have changed? And seeing as the Gotei 13 is the primary military force of the Soul Society, defeating them would indeed spell doom for them. I agree that fans might have built up too much hype for these guys. Mohrpheus (talk) 11:57, August 25, 2010 (UTC)
- Hey, why stop at Ulquiorra? Why is Yammy in Las Noches? he is the "Cero" espada. imagine if he decided to get off his lazy butt and join aizen. instead of giant Fura, you have giant Yammy!!! so if we really imagine and consider Ulquiorra and Yammy vasto lorde and in karakura town, then i don't think the Captains would be home on time for dinner. Be real, 6 vasto lorde, and i bet most people would be putting money on the espada. now 10 and like Hitsugaya siad, they would be doomed.Jaybirt5 (talk) 04:00, August 27, 2010 (UTC)
If they had all gone to FKT then the end result would have been very different to what we got.
Despite the fact they were supposed to be a team, they didn't show any, you know, TEAMWORK at all.
The only people that did work as a team were Harribel's girls, and they not only owned about five lueitenants but they had to be taken out by Yamamoto.
Thats got to say something about how far working together gets you.
Hell, Yammy and Ulqui both released would have been a hell of a challenge for possible even Yamamoto, let alone without throwing Tia, Starrk and Barragan into the mix. TotalDrama22121. When worlds collide...it's dramatic. 21:30, September 14, 2010 (UTC)
I think there is not much fault here. Lets start with the Menos Grande in the first season. Rukia had never seen a Menos before except in books, and hence thought that some one who is as "weak" as Ichigo (Face it: No one thot Ichigo is "Captain level" in the first season) cant face a Menos. She probably did not know the true identity of Kisuke Urahara, the defaulted captain or Tessai, the erstwhile Kidou Corps Captain (Wow !!). Hence she was terrified.
Coming to the whole misconstrued remarks of Toushiro: Maybe the manga wanted the people to think they are realy strong to keep the viewers interested. Among the Epsada, I personally think there were 4 Vasto Lordes: Stark, Barragan, Halibel and Ulquiorra. This is bcoz, excluding Ulquiorra, the pasts of all the three top Espada show their real sizes: they were closest in size to humans - a description for Vasto Lordes mentioned By Toushiro. Also strength-wise we see that no captain can stand their ground on their own against the top three. Until Hachigen arrived, Barragan was running the show. Halibel was undefeated tilll the end.Toushiro was able to momentarily able to defeat Halibel because he was the boy-genius captain. Even Stark was defeated by a battle genius of a captain, Shunsui Kyoraku. Shunsui could not have got serious without the help of the Visoreds Love and Rose. So, maybe the Arrancarization of the Vasto Lordes' did make them stronger than average captain-level. Also I think Yammy is an anamalous Adjucha like Aaroneiro was a Gilliian. He probably had the spirit power of a Rank 10, but must be really strong to surpass VL Arrancar to be Rank 0.
Thirdly, Isshin Kurosaki, mentions there are naturally occuring Arrancar. Coyote Stark was probably one. His previous self might have been millenia old when he might have Arrancarized, to turn into himself and Lilinette, evidently from his flash back. That is probably why instead of his sword he releases Lilinette for Ressureccion.
I think giving these guys too much credit is a big issue. We talk about the hype surrounding various characters and classes in the series when it comes to power. While its probable even more so likely that the top four are for the Vasto Lorde class they results are overshadowed by the proposed great power they possess. Ive laid this point down multiple times. Starrk was fighting on even terms of Shunsui and neither was serious. When it came down to it Shunsui beat him with shikai which even by Starrk seemed odd that he didnt bring out the power before and simply ended the fight. Shunsui ultimately needed no help from Love or Rose in that regard, he finished his battle that he started. Toshiro vs. Harribel positioned itself similarly Hitsugaya was a counter to harribel. His skill had nothing to with his genius but more to do with his power it was far greater then hers. Harribel generated & manipulated water. Hitsugaya has hyorinmaru which is them most powerful ice type zanpakuto in soul society. His power extended over water, ice, and the weather itself. His youth is what was his weakness. His inability to fully control his abilities is what set him back. Harribel held her own but that wouldnt have been the case had he had full control. She was largely outmaneuvered when it became evident his power extended farther then hers. Barragan is another issue, his power was nothing that could be fought against and countered. --Salubri (Talk) 17:05, March 30, 2011 (UTC)
On the issue of too much credit, whatever class of Menos Yammy was, while he was powerful as the 0 Espada, his weakness was the absolute worst out of all the Espada: his horrendous speed-size ratio. Kenpachi had far less trouble with him than he did with Nnoitra in the beginning; Yammy was simply getting massacred. So he could throw tremendously powerful punches; so he had a really big and powerful cero. Face it; he was too big and slow to be able to hit Kenpachi. I mean come on, Kenpachi can't even perform shun-po (in the manga, anyway), and he was still able to avoid practically all but one of Yammy's attacks. Some people above say that Yammy at full power would make a pretty big difference. I say different; he would be no more than a nuisance to smash down easily. You all can say what you want, but I'm adamant about this. Just because you have the biggest guns doesn't mean a thing if you can't hit your target. Aeron Solo wuz here (talk) 01:20, March 31, 2011 (UTC)
I think the main problem is the perception of the characters and their relative power. Prior to Ichigo and his gang, and aside from the Captains and Lieutenants, most of the Hollow extermination, and day-to-day operations were carried out by seated officers, who in almost every case they are shown, struggle against your everyday normal Hollows. If you consider what Hitsugaya said, it makes sense why they would be afraid. The Vasto Lordes could very easily wipe out most if not all of Soul Society. Beyond being a challenge for the Captains of Soul Society, these are monsters that have the power to cause widespread devastation. Aside from just pure brute strength, scope needs to be considered as well. Baraggan himself would have crippled the entire military force of Soul Society, eroded its Sekkiseki stones, which would have basically made Soul Society an open target for invasion, followed by Yammy growing to his immense size and Starrk literaly raining nukes all day long on Soul Society. Aside from their fights, if you consider each Arrancar's abilities, and their scope, the Espada were fully capable of bringing about the destruction of Soul Society if they would have been given the chance. And consider this. How big IS the population of Soul Society? Millions? Billions? Perhaps even...Trillions? And yet out of that entire population size, scarecly more than two dozen are capable of fighting against an Arrancar let alone a Menos. Rukia was damn right to be scared when she first encountered the Menos. In reality, its scope that determines power, not strength. Illuminate Void (Talk) 06:39, March 31, 2011 (UTC)
- Very late to this discussion, but I think I should point out - after having read through lots of people discussing this power level thing - that the entirety of Hitsugaya's speech was misconstrued based on translators misunderstanding a key term it contained - taichou-kaku. This is often translated as 'Captain Rank', but Kubo uses it to specify a broad band encompassing VC and Captain level shinigami, not Captain level alone. This is proven by its use in several scenes, for example Pendulum -97 where all of the eight future vaizard are referred to as 'taichou-kaku', even though four of them are VC level). The VL were never overhyped, just misunderstood because of a linguistic technicality. They fit exactly into the power range Kubo intended them to be, as confirmed by his Masked book statement that they were almost all (hotondo) VL.Vraieesprit (talk) 21:11, July 13, 2012 (UTC)