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Main article: Coyote Starrk Main article: Lilynette Gingerbuck Here you can discuss the 1st Espada, Coyote Starrk, and his other part, Lilynette Gingerback. Existing topics are listed below, but feel free to add new ones if what you want to discuss is not covered here already. Do not add create new forums about Starrk and/or Lilynette, as they will be deleted and their content moved to the appropriate forums.Twocents 23:33, November 2, 2009 (UTC)

Existing TopicsEdit

All of these topics are open and available for discussion. Twocents 23:33, November 2, 2009 (UTC)

Starrk's NameEdit

Wow, that Coyote part really screwed up Starrk's coolness.

It doesnt fits Starrk's Personality to me. But the name is alright Its made to sound like a gunslinger wild wild western name obviously.Heruga59 02:18, September 13, 2009 (UTC)

Actualy, it fits in my opinion. Coyotes and wolves are both canines, and Coyote's live out in the west where the gunslingers that Starrk is based originated from. Besides when you think about what his full name means, it can mean grim coyote or cool coyote.--Moe1216 21:59, September 13, 2009 (UTC)

Or Wile E Coyote. TomServo101 22:22, September 13, 2009 (UTC)

I don't know what the writer's opinion of the name 'Coyote' is but if I had to hazard a guess he wasn't thinking of the cartoon coyote. More likely he was probably drawing on the Native American idea of a trickster god similar to Loki...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coyote_(mythology)

Starrk could be said to share some qualities with Coyote.

Great Cthulhu 02:43, September 14, 2009 (UTC)

He is referenced to Gunslingers by the guns and Wolves by the spanish name of his resureccion Los Lobos. The Coyote in Amerindian mythology is quite similar to the Fox in Japanese mythology. In this case, because he is a clever, morphing but tricky opponent. …or is it because at the beginning he wanted to use the fox concept, but as it is already used in the Naruto series, he changed it to coyote... Baronofash 05:11, September 14, 2009 (UTC)

Starrk, Lily and the WolvesEdit

As we all know, Arrancar of Espada level are all Menos. As we all know, Menos are several hollow as one. Now, I have an idea that Starrk might have had a split personality before Shinigamification. Being split between the dominant spirits of Starrk, and Lily. As a Arrancar, this split personality became their unique method of ressureccion, due to the fact that instead of a single hollow dominating control of the Menos, there were two. Now that we've seen his wolves, perhaps those are the rest of the spirits that comprise them? I know it sounds far-fetched, but perhaps the split personality explains the two. One eye 04:56, September 12, 2009 (UTC)

Starrk's Immense Spiritual PressureEdit

In the recent chapter, Starrk remembers his life before. He says that those around him lost their souls and died just by being around him. Could this be attributed to his immense power? Since he (and Lilynette) is (are) the Primera Espada, it wouldn't be that much of a stretch to assume that he was strong long before he (they) became an Arrancar since we know that Barragan's power was great enough that he was called the King of Hueco Mundo. --Shinitenshi 16:14, September 17, 2009 (UTC)

It could just mean that his very presence "sucked up" their souls. Hollows suck up spirit particles just by standing around. So do quincy and even Shinigami to a lesser extent but I believe the ambient sucking up is the greats for hollows. So that's what could have happened when Starrk said that just by "being around us our friends lost their souls". I.e. he killed them just by being with them. However, this is all speculation so for now I think we just have to leave it as "we don't have a clue what he means exactly". Tinni 16:38, September 17, 2009 (UTC)

I think that this also means he split himself into two beings, to lower his spiritual power. This way, he wouldn't kill weaker Hollows so fast. Lilynette might just be immune to his power... considering that she IS a part of him. Abedeus 09:59, September 19, 2009 (UTC)

The masks in the flashback were broken, that suggests combat to me. ZeroSD 12:53, September 19, 2009 (UTC)

Starrks aspect of death is loneliness and since hollows fight all the time it could just mean that whatever pack he was in had their numbers reduced that eventually all of them died leaving him all alone and to save himself from that he split forms.--SalmanH 20:00, September 19, 2009 (UTC)

Starrk Vasto LordeEdit

Now that we are seeing parts of his past we have seen that his "friends" all end up dying just being around him so maybe its because he has to eat them like a vasto lorde eats other vasto lordesKensei24 19:02, September 17, 2009 (UTC)

No it probably was because of his incredible reiatsu killing them. Why would he say that they died by him being near if he ate them in reality. Ergroilnin 20:15, September 17, 2009 (UTC)

I think they died because they weren't strong enough to survive the battles in the hollow world. He was saying something about wishing that he had a friend as strong as he was, maybe he thought that the high strenght level would insure their survival and he wouldn't be alone. Kissmybankai 20:46, September 17, 2009 (UTC)

ehh i just wanted outside opinions so i thank you and i was just guessingKensei24 22:39, September 18, 2009 (UTC)

Well my theory is that his friends "lost their souls and whithered away and died" because of his ambient spirit particle absorption. Hollows, like quincy, absorb the ambient spirit particles surrounding them. Well we know that when Ishida went "final form quincy" he was absorbing particles so powerfully that he was breaking apart the structure around him. What if Starrk was absorbing ambient spirit particles so much that over time he sucked away the souls of his friends. So he did "eat them" in a way but not by choice. He can't control the rate he absorbs particles or stop himself be caused his friends to lose their souls like that. Tinni 02:07, September 19, 2009 (UTC)

I also think he's a natural arrancar as it seems that he split his soul into himself and his "zanpakuto" Lylenette long before he met Aizen and joined Aizen because he want to join a pack of people as strong as him. He might have been a vasto lord too. His resurrection is lone gunslinger NOT wolf per say. The wolf aspect seems to be more his summon wolf ability. Tinni 02:07, September 19, 2009 (UTC)

When they died they left broken masks, suggesting combat.

I'd be amazed if he wasn't a vasto lorde, he walks around for who knows how long without finding someone as strong as himself. ZeroSD 08:44, September 19, 2009 (UTC)

Since in the flashback of the current chapter we see Starrk first meeting Lilynette, he looks exactly as he does now, would we be able to assume that he's a Vasto Lorde? Or is it best to wait to find out if he was one of the arrancar that made himself one instead of Aizen turning him? I ask because it was said that the Vasto Lorde look most human before becoming arrancar, and if he was still a Hollow when he split himself in two and he looked like that, wouldn't it mean he was? I won't edit it in until confirmed, but I just wanted people's opinions about whether it should/will be included at some point. Revan46 19:15, September 25, 2009 (UTC)

Well....It did seem plausible, until he got beaten without Bankai....Of course, given his opponent, it isn't all that shameful. So for now, I'll say probably not. Although, a voice in my head won't shut up about his hole cracking, when the same never happened to any other Espada, including Nnoitora, who died almost the same way. Perhaps it had the ability to restrain his power, and in a few seconds he's going to jump up and start fighting again, due to it breaking. Eh, just a random thought I had, feel free to disprove it. Damanos 02:48, September 27, 2009 (UTC)

Starrk versus ShunsuiEdit

This is one Bleach battle I'm dreading the outcome no matter who wins. Tito Kubo was very effective in creating a character you could respect in the form of Coyote Starrk with only a few panels. And Shunsui is of course Shunsui and equally deserving of respect and sympathy. I haven't been this conflicted about a Bleach battle since we found out why Rukia's brother was so intent on seeing her executed. I have to say this battle is the most adroit and satisfying of those fought so far in Karakura Town...or even Ichigo's battle with Ulquiorra. Great Cthulhu 13:36, September 17, 2009 (UTC)

I can totally agree. I dont want to see Starrk go and definitly not Shunsui. I mean they both have become characters that I can appreciate. Especially now that I got a glimpse into who Starrk really his. Only thing that Im disappointed in is that we did not get to see more of the powers of the Love and Rose. I mean they basically got overwhelmed by the wolves and Starrk could have easilly finished that figh but I still would have like to see the mask come into play a little more for those two. Tealang99 15:42, September 17, 2009 (UTC)

Is it just me, or is Starrk fighting Kyoraku a little lazily? Kyoraku is strong, sure, but shunpo has its limits, and even Ulquiorra, three ranks down, moves fast enough to outstrip ichigo in both bankai and vizard mode. or are these inconsistencies allowed because they make to plot better? --Ulquiorra Wannabe128 12:40, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

i would say its because starrk is a lazy character to begin with, i mean at the beginning of the fight he doesn't even want to use any special abilities, just sword fight. he reminds of how neliel is, how hes an amazing fighter but only does it when he really has to. Viperaspec 03:05, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

I'd say he's lazy *and* Shunsui is one of the faster captains to begin with. ZeroSD 04:03, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

I think they are both fighting without much enthuasiam. They were both simlar in that respect. As well as using unhanded tactics to achieve objectives, sneaking up from the back. Not that it's underhanded but i'd rather u catch from the front where i can c it, rather than the back where i can't. Looking at stark is lazier than shunsui, it wasn't until he got interested seeing the power of the bankai's he got serious, I think ability wise they were quiet close, until stark starts using a gun, Ukitake shouldn't have stopped him from using his bankai.Kissmybankai 21:21, September 13, 2009 (UTC)

What is Lilynette GingerbackEdit

The discussion on this page is a continuation of an older thread that has been closed.The previous discussion on this topic can be seen here:
Forum:What is Lilynette Gingerback (Closed)

This is a continuation of the discussion in a now closed thread. Feel free to review the thread, but do not add to it. Instead, continue it here. ~~Ууp ^<talk> 20:24, December 31, 2009 (UTC)

Soul-Separation Edit

Is that referring to his wolf attack, or him and Lilynette?--暗闇の門番 - "Gatekeeper of Darkness" ^{(言うことを何かを得た - "You got something to say?")} 01:19, July 9, 2010 (UTC)

Both, he is able to separate his soul into other beings such as lilynette and wolves--God (Pray) 01:26, July 9, 2010 (UTC)

Alright. But is it possible for other Arrancar to split into two beings? I really need to know.--暗闇の門番 - "Gatekeeper of Darkness" ^{(言うことを何かを得た - "You got something to say?")} 02:25, July 9, 2010 (UTC)

"Arrancar", no it is not possible for "Arrancar" to split into two beings. It is however possible for hollows to make the transition to Arrancar by splitting into two beings as oppose to a being and a sword. That's all there is to Starrk and Lilynette. Tinni (Talk) 02:34, July 9, 2010 (UTC)

Thanks. That's what I needed to know--暗闇の門番 - "Gatekeeper of Darkness" ^{(言うことを何かを得た - "You got something to say?")} 02:51, July 9, 2010 (UTC)

Did anyone else notice...Edit

That Aizen met Starrk and Lilynette after they split? So... does that mean they were natural born Arrancar? That they were born without the use of the Hogyoku? Emmi11 04:09, September 26, 2009 (UTC)

I noticed that too. It's possible they were incomplete Arrancar at the time (how, I'm not sure as they looked pretty complete), and Aizen might have completed that evolution with the Hogyoku. It was that case with Grand Fisher. But then again, Starrk and Lilynette looked pretty human, so they might not have been affected by the Hogyoku at all. I might need to go back and look at Lilynette to see if there was any noticeable differences to be sure. Arrancar109 04:12, September 26, 2009 (UTC)

Is Starrk starting to sound like a good guy?Edit

In the last chapter released Starrk is starting to seem more and more like a good guy instead of an evil esapda. He's worried about the life of his friends, and doesn't want to fight any more because he's afraid of people dying, and he had to get a prep talk about how it's up to him to save his friends (very ichigo like). and lets face facts, the Vizards are at this battle purely for revenge on Aizen. Maybe it's a mistake on my part, or maybe there a change of heart for starrk soon. Tell me what you think, and if you think he's starting to sound like a good guy also

I dont know that it justifies calling him good, you can be a bad guy and be concerned about those on your side. Though who he is talking about Is questionable cause we haven't seen his interactions with others on any real friend like terms. Barragan obviously only had followers and no friends so im not sure he cared about him, all the other espada are dead and who knows how he feels about Harribel. Most of the Espada seem to have an antagonistic work relationship if anything. It makes you wonder who he is referring to. Besides that the Vizard are not at fault they were betrayed and yes they are out for vengeance but it is well deserved and Starrk is on the side of the one they want revenge against. Just as stated he could have walked away but chose to fight, maybe for his own reasons (noble as they maybe) he's still on the wrong side. Funny enough the only espada i have any feeling for in this regard is nel of course. Starrk doesn't seem to really have animosity or arrogance and can appreciate others abilities, unlike other espada. He maybe a saving grace a breath of fresh air and being that he probably wont fall to the same thing that gets espada killed, overconfidence and arrogance. He seems more the type to retreat or realize Aizen is the real problem. We will see.Salubri 04:37, September 6, 2009 (UTC)

For some reason, I think Starrk will defeat Love and Rose, but not kill them, and Starrk will live long enough to realize that Aizen really doesn't care about the Espada.Asesiel

I won't be suprised if he does switch sides, or at least has a pop at Aizen before the end. I think he's already realised he's completely disposable to Aizen, so will have no qualms with doing so. Don't know if the Shinigami will accept him, the Vizard might. TomServo101 11:07, September 6, 2009 (UTC)

--I don't know if Starrk is gonna end up a good guy. More likely he will be the noble villain...sympathetic but clearly on the wrong side.

That said I like Starrk more than either of his current opponents so I wouldn't mind seeing him winning (which doesn't automatically have to mean killing them) but coming to a realization that it doesn't have to be this way. He could leave Aizen's service and become a leader in his own right for a rebel Arrancar faction. Great Cthulhu 12:33, September 6, 2009 (UTC)

At what point was Starrk sounding like a bad guy? He is the one Espada who from the beginning was totally indifferent towards Soul Society and the war in general. He only released because his curiosity was piqued in relation to Kyoraku's bankai after he saw those of Hitsugaya and Soifon. I guess what I am saying is that Starrk is on the side of Aizen and that's makes him an enemy from the point of view of Soul Society. But unlike most of the other Esapda, including Ulq, he doesn't seem to have anything personal against anyone. Barragan looked down upon everybody pretty much, Ulq thought hollows were superior, Nnoitora just wanted to destroy everything and be destroyed in the end, Zommari thinks Shinigami are arrogant, Apollo wanted all non-hollows destroyed and Aaronero... likes eating stuff? So for them it was a real war because they did actively hate/dislike/want to destroy the Shinigami and their allies. Only other espada for whom it wasn't anything personal was Grimmjow who just likes fighting. Gimmjow is of course still presumably alive. So... who knows how the Starrk story is going to play out. But I am really excited. He's the only Espada I give a damn about. Tinni 14:30, September 6, 2009 (UTC)

PS. I didn't mention Harribel because she's so boring she puts me to sleep. Just thinking about her makes me sleepy. But for her I would guess it is personal because Soul Society killed her subordinates (then they did foolishly challenge Yamamoto) and she does seem to be more loyal to Aizen then either Starrk or Barragan. Tinni 14:30, September 6, 2009 (UTC) Stark is just like a human or shinigami more than hollow.I think it makes him so damn powerfull if he fights for someone's sake he could be unbeatable like ichigo defeated Ulq.So I can't say he is like a good guy or something but it seems he is acting more like human.

What's with those long tailed wolves?Edit

seeing as how his powers seem to be cero centered, it could be a for of energy being made from cero's from his guns? Fawcettp 11:58, September 4, 2009 (UTC)

They do look like energy based wolves. They could be cero wolves. I am actually getting worried about Love and Rose. I wonder how they are going to hold up against Starrk, now that Starrk's serious. Tinni 12:10, September 4, 2009 (UTC)

Closed TopicsEdit

These are old topics on Coyote Starrk and/or Lilynette Gingerback, and barring new information, they do not need to be added to. Twocents 23:33, November 2, 2009 (UTC)

If Starrk dies, do you think Lilynette will too?Edit

While in his Ressureccion, I mean. I figure yes, but I suppose there could be alternatives. Twocents 22:06, September 11, 2009 (UTC)

I would tend to agree with you on that. If he died even though sealed they are separate, it seems as though she would die too as they are apart of each other. By their own interaction is seen that they are connected to each other and and when they do the ressureccion that becomes all the more obvious. Not to say it will be at the same time but probably as long as shortly after. Even still she wouldn't be able to survive on her own, as she is considerably weak compared to other arrancar and without him she can't release it would seem, he has the majority of the power obviously.Salubri 22:36, September 11, 2009 (UTC)

Starrk's Gonna DieEdit

The discussion on this page is a continuation of an older thread that has been closed.The previous discussion on this topic can be seen here:
Forum:He's gonna die...

This is simply to inform people that this discussion occurred. There is no need to continue it. Twocents 23:33, November 2, 2009 (UTC)

What is Lilynette Gingerback (Closed)Edit

The discussion on this page has been closed. The discussion on this topic is continued here:
Forum:Coyote Starrk and Lilynette Gingerback
Please do not edit this discussion.

Is she really still considered a numeros? Since she is apparently a part of stark (or something similar) is she actually considered a numeros? (Sorry if I misspelled that XD)Acacia Akiyama 19:29, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

By definition yes. She is Starrk's Fraccion mostly because they are one but she still serves under him. All Fraccion are numeros, and even if she is part of Starrk she is still an Arrancar. WhiteStrike 19:35, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

In the recent chapter (373) on page 17, Starrk called both himself and her, the Primera Espada. Shouldn't that be in the page? Also that would debunk the claim that she is a Numerous. The quote I believe was, "We are the Primera Espada, Coyote Starrk and Lilynette Gingerback, and this is our power." I believe this means literally that. They are both the First Espada and that should be put in the article as well as it be listed in her occupation. Something like: Primera Espada (along with Starrk, her other half). Just my opinion though it is backed by facts. Thanks for listening and here is a link for those wanting proof of what I claim: http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/373/17/

Ten Tailed Fox 13:12, September 11, 2009 (UTC)

Fan-translations are not reliable sources.--Licourtrix 01:34, September 12, 2009 (UTC)

Do you have a scanlation, then, that says something different? Otherwise, I see no reason to completely dismiss it, especially since if Sleepy Fans' scanlations were wildly inaccurate on a regular basis, people wouldn't read them. Twocents 03:02, September 12, 2009 (UTC)

Either way, Lilynette is still named as a Numeros. She doesn't have an Espada tattoo, nor is she referred to as an Espada by others. Additionally, on her own, her strength level doesn't even come close to matching an Espada's, given how easily Ukitake kept the fight in his favor. Finally, even though Lilynette is merged with Starrk in his released form, it's still pretty clear that Starrk himself is the dominating mind. It's for these reasons that I think Lilynette should'nt be categorized as an Espada. That, and her consciousness is in one of Starrk's guns. Arrancar109 03:13, September 12, 2009 (UTC)

See, those I will accept as viable reasons for keeping her status listed as a Numeros. Thanks for not being dismissive, Arrancar109! Twocents 03:23, September 12, 2009 (UTC)

Haha so what if she doesn't have an Espada tattoo or isn't as strong as the other Espada. She was just confirmed as the Primera along with Starrk. She was never confirmed as a numeros. While you do have good points Arrancar109. Shes still an Espada whether you like it or not. And I don't think you should keep her as a numeros just because putting her as an espada doesn't fit your tasteThunderwitch 09:47, September 12, 2009 (UTC)

I've checked three different scans besides Sleepyfan, which read as following:

"We are the Primera Espada Coyote Stark and Lillinette Gingerback and this is our power" - HuecoMundo Scans

"The title of Primera Espada belongs to us...Coyote Starrk and Lilynette Gingerback for this very reason" - Binktopia

"That is the power that we, the Primera Espada...Coyote Starrk...and Lilynette Gingerback...posses." -Franky House

And the Japanese for the sentence is "Sore-wa ore-tachi purimera esupada..." "Ore-tachi" means "we" without any doubt.

I don't think there's any way Lilynette can be considered Starrk's fraccion, when we plainly says here that they are the Primera Espada. Since the Espada are ranked in terms of overall power, not just power prior to release, and since Starrk and Lilynette require each other to release, Lilynette can also be considered an Esapda. And furthermore, I don't think her apparent lack of a tattoo has anything to do with it. We never saw Szayel's or Zommari's tattoos, did we?

Daisekihan 20:31, September 12, 2009 (UTC)

I never said anything about translation issues, but I still think there's reason to doubt her as an Espada, as she become a part of Starrk after he releases, but she still retains sentience... just in a gun, not the main body. Also, in addition to my previously stated reasons, she's not present in any of the Espada meetings either. Arrancar109 20:43, September 12, 2009 (UTC)

Okay, maybe she's not an Esapda...but at the very least, I don't think she can be considered Starrk's fraccion. Daisekihan 20:50, September 12, 2009 (UTC)

I'm not saying Fan-translations are inaccurate, just not always reliable. The whole debate shouldn't be centered around it, most fan-translators have an incomplete education in Japanese that may allow subtle ways the words are written to get by them. I agree however that the arguement goes more towards Lilynette not being an espada. She simply isn't strong enough on her own to warrant being called one of the deadliest fighters among the hollows and without stark to merge with (wonder how that works anyway? if they were twins I could see it but...)she wouldn't be associated with the espada. If anything this might mean merging her article with Stark's.--Licourtrix 02:14, September 13, 2009 (UTC)

She and Starrk are the same PERSON! That alone means that she isn't a numerous or a faccione like other numerous or faccione. Let's not confuse the fact and as has been noted, ALL the translators say that Starrk said "we are the prima" espada. I say that we change the article to reflect her special status. Saying just what we do know, "Lilynette is not like other numerous or faccione as she is part of Starrk, making her exact classification somewhat ambiguous. Indeed, Starrk states that the prima espada titles belongs to them jointly." This does not declare her to be an espada, but it captures exactly what has been revealed. That's what I think. Tinni 02:25, September 13, 2009 (UTC)

Inaccurate is a synonym for unreliable. And when all the scanlations say essentially the same thing (thanks for getting those, Daisekihan!), it's hard to say that we can't use the scanlations as a foundation for making a decision about this. Especially since if it wasn't for that statement in the scanlation, there'd be nothing to center the discussion around anyway.

That being said, I don't think their articles should be merged, or that they should be considered the exact same individual. This is for a couple reasons:

Starrk's article would be horrendous to read if we added on the entire length of Lilynette's (which sounds silly, but what's the point to an article if it's so lengthy that no one wants to read it?)
They each have unique names - not even the same first or last name - and Starrk uses the pronoun "we" not "I" when referring to them, demonstrating that he doesn't consider them to be the same individual. If he did, there'd be no reason to use a plural word to refer to himself, a singular entity. Unless, I suppose, you want to argue that he uses the Royal we. Twocents 02:38, September 13, 2009 (UTC)

I've always been told fan-translations are a non-canon source until something by the publisher is produced that says the same thing. Inaccurate and unreliable are non synonyms, their meanings are entirely different. By saying inaccurate I'd being saying they're almost always wrong. This isn't the case, or why in some circles fan-translations are conisdered inferior. I say unreliable because they're often hastily compiled and sometimes contain errors or words that the translator didn't want to translate and just left the way it was, or missed a suffix that would change how the sentence reads in english. I'm not saying, and never will say they're consistently wrong, but that to anyone compiling something encyclopedic, they shouldn't be considered the end all of a discussion. I didn't suggest merging as an entirely serious idea, as I see that rarely happens here. So far I'm agreeing with Tinni, "combined with stark lilynette is the primera espada" sounds rather nice compared to saying she is or isn't an espada, numeros or just a fraccion. I wouldn't think Stark the type to use the Royal we, Barragan certainly, but not stark ^_^--Licourtrix 04:59, September 13, 2009 (UTC)

Looks fair. Well, I'll check with Salubri on this, just to be sure. Arrancar109 05:03, September 13, 2009 (UTC)

Ok well i'll be honest I really don't care to much either way, but if i have to take a side on this. Ill say this much It's never stated whether Lillynette is either a numeros or faccion. It seems that Starrk and her are one of the same being, in this the circumstances are complex. He specifically says "the two of us are one. when other hollows evolved to arrancars, they split their powers between their bodies and their swords. But we split into two bodies. when we become one again, our full power is released". Chapter 361, page 14-15. In the he most recent chapter he states we more then once, when talking about the wolves and then he says they are the primera espada and this is their power. The most logical conclusion is that she is apart of him. She is neither espada, numerous or faccion (least we forget that these are all just organizational titles and ranks). She is a arrancar an while starrk is the an espada and the primera she is apart of him making them one in the same when they release. If anything changes it should be reflected as such in that she is only considered a espada by starrk as she is apart of him, she neither has that title, power or official capacity on her own. Hopefully that helps.Salubri 05:40, September 13, 2009 (UTC)

I think this would be an acceptable compromise. Daisekihan 07:40, September 13, 2009 (UTC)

Agreed.--Licourtrix 00:45, September 14, 2009 (UTC)

Don't really want add fuel to a fire but I do not see why she cannot be called his fraccione, When merged she becomes LaPrimera along with him but as a single entity which she is cause her persona is totally different from that of of Starrk and also her views. She fought Ukitake by herself, Stark fought Shunshui two separate individuals, then they combined to form LaPrimera. In the anime when Souske introduced his Top 3 Espada each had their fraccione next to them, agreed she is from Starrk but when separated she serves the duties of a fraccione and should be listed as one when she is not combined with Starrk.Shinji hirako 04:53, September 15, 2009 (UTC)

Fought is too strong a word for what she was doing with Ukitake. :) Tinni 11:19, September 17, 2009 (UTC)

A fraccion has no real tie to the espada's power however...she does. Her personality doesn't merge with his in his ressurccion form either she simply adds power by becoming the guns he uses to fire ceros. She shows that she still keeps her views too, encouraging stark to fight when he feels like giving up and exclaiming that she can feel pain when he smacks his guns. In essence she is a part of Starks power, split off, If the two masks in a tube that made Aaroniero are considered the 9th espada I think Stark and Lilynette should both be considered the Primera.--Licourtrix 05:10, September 16, 2009 (UTC)

Im not trying to be a bitch, but why is Lilynette still listed as a fraccion when she was just confirmed as the Primera Espada along with Coyote? It really shouldn't matter whether we agree with it or not, but she is. And she should be listed as such.Thunderwitch 04:01, September 17, 2009 (UTC)

Well, I'm not entirely sure about the Fraccion thing, so I did nothing on it. However, I did change Lilynette's occupation slightly by stating that she's the 1st Espada AFTER releasing. Arrancar109 06:00, September 17, 2009 (UTC)

Almost there. But you need to completely remove fraccion from her occupation, and the word from her page entirely. She should be also listed has the primera espada next to Starrk on the "List of Arrancar". Its not that hard. I don't see how you can call her a fraccion when she was never introduced or confirmed being a fraccion. Yet, when she's confirmed being the Primera along with Starrk. We seem to ignore that and keep her as a fraccion when in fact shes the Primera Espada. It really irks me. There shouldn't be any excuses as to why she shouldn't be an espada when the manga specifically states it.Thunderwitch 08:30, September 17, 2009 (UTC)

I think most people identify Fraccion as direct subordinates of the Espada. Either way though, in some cases, I did have to change "Fraccion" to "subordinate", but otherwise, I was able to remove the aspects of calling Lilynette a "Fraccion". Arrancar109 14:41, September 17, 2009 (UTC)

What I don't get is why we haven't changed it yet. I attempted to but the edit was reverted. The fact is that Lilynette was never confirmed as a Numerous, she never had a Numerous number. Most of the other prominent Numerous have provided their number during a fight, she has not. She HAS been confirmed to be the First Espada along with Starrk. So I am going to say this plainly and please do not take this as me being frustrated cuz Im not, I just want you to know: It has been confirmed in the manga that Lilynette is the Primera alongside Starrk. Therefore it simply does not matter what most other Arrancar are or have been, our opinion as fans also does not matter. The fact is that it has been confirmed. Most of us here agree that she isnt a Numerous or a Fraccion so please change it to say that she is the Primera along with Starrk. Ten Tailed Fox 18:08, September 21, 2009 (UTC)

If your argument is that she's not considered a Numeros because she never provided a number, that's quite faulty. Only seven of the named Numeros have provided a number, while there have been 28 Numeros named in total. It's not uncommon for them to not provide their numbers, especially when easily the most prominent Numeros, Pesche and Dondochakka, have failed to do so. While she is listed in the manga as an Espada post-release, she is not listed as being an Espada prior to Starrk's release. For all we know, when she's not merged with Starrk, she is considered just a Numeros, especially since it's implied that Starrk and her split before joining Aizen. With the way it is worded now, it airs more on the side of caution, rather than making a bunch of assumptions, and I see no issues with it. Twocents 18:48, September 21, 2009 (UTC)

No my argument is that all of the Numerous do date have been proven to be numerous at some point. Neither in Starrk's flashback or anywhere in the manga is any proof that she is one, however there is a flat out statement that she is an Espada. Post release or not, that makes her an Espada. You don't become an Espada by releasing. She is the same being as Starrk. She and him are the same, if she is the same person as him then they can't hold separate ranks. Aside from that, my argument is not based on speculation at all, Starrk clearly states "WE are the Primera Espada, Coyote Starrk and Lilynette Gingerback, and this is our power." He didn't say "I" or "She is after fusing with me.", he said "we". So it is speculation that she is a Numerous, but it is a fact that she is an Espada. This wiki is founded for facts on Bleach and until Starrk or Lilynette comes right out and says she is or was a Numerous to confirm it, that is just speculation to assume she was a Numerous. Ten Tailed Fox 23:24, September 21, 2009 (UTC)

Come on, it clearly states under her rank or whatever that she is the primera espada post release. That's all we know! Certainly she's the same person as Starrk when unreleased but she's a different entity with her own personality traits. I think the current page is the most accurate considering what we do know. BollyW 03:08, September 22, 2009 (UTC)

Alright, look. First off, you must all be idiots (save for Ten Tails). It CLEARLY says that "We are the Primera Espada, Coyote Starrk and Lilynette Gingerback, and this is our power". Thats It. Weither we like it or not, unless Tite confirms that Lilynette is a Fraccion, then she is an Espada. She may be seperated from Starrk, but she and him share the same reiatsu. Are we all forgeting that even if she is only considered Primera Espada by release, then by that logic, Yammy is still only Decima, not Cero Espada. From the time Starrk said it, and used Lilynette's full name when he introduced his rank, that confirms it. Unless Tite says else, she is a Espada, Primera. That is it. If you all don't agree, then you all need to take another gander at the Manga. Now then, you all have two choices. Either, admit your wrong and change it, or try to make a meaningly and futile comeback. Either way, good luck. Seireitou-hanshi ^{(瀞霊冬川平)} 05:16, September 22, 2009 (UTC)

He has a point there guys. By the same logic, if Lilynette is only an Espada after release then Yami isnt an Espada until after release either. Yammy says that the numbers of the Espada go from 0-9, so Decima means he is a numeros post-release. That is a confimation. Lilynette is an Espada, pre and post release, period, its what the manga states. Ten Tailed Fox 05:22, September 22, 2009 (UTC)

Exactly, Yammi is an espada pre and post release as is Lilynette. However she isn't the Primera espada pre-release for the same reason that Yammi isn't the Cero Espada pre-release. And they don't share the same reaitsu, even though they are the same being, they are completely seperate pre-release. So pre-release she is an entirely different Espada, with no rank. As a matter of fact, although technically this is true, she isn't officially ranked as such because if she was, she'd get a seat at the conference table and get all the rights that the espada get. So from Aizen's point of view, from the other Espada's point of view, from the Shinigami's point of view, Lilynette is not an espada except by sheer techincality. Now it's fine to go into this in a bit of depth in the article itself to clear it up but for the side text box summary, it is most succint and accurate to say that she is the primera espada post-release. And let's keep this conversation civil, we're all here to improve the wiki so there's no need to be so aggressive and insulting. BollyW 07:27, September 22, 2009 (UTC)

Plus, didn't Yammy refer to himself as arrancar diez, not an espada.

Lilynette has never had a number revealed (neither has Wonderweiss, who is not confirmed to be an espada) and her power levels are nothing like espada level (as Ukitake proved). Like you said, this wiki is based on fact (anything that isn't is purely for the forum. Coincidentally, this is starting to get too speccy for the talk page) and you based your argument on what Starrk said; that's fine. But it's your intepretation, and as such is not hard fact (neither is my intepretation, which is she's ust a zanpakuto analogue). Should the issue be resolved, we will change it, don't you worry, but until then, please be patient. We're doing the best we can with what we know. TomServo101 09:52, September 22, 2009 (UTC)

Can we please not bring Wonderweiss into this. Just yesterday I had water down his trivia section and say that "he has a mark on his chest but we don't know what it is or what it means", because we don't. SS registered Wonderweiss as having reiatsu high enough to be among the Espada, which is fine but that alone doesn't make him an espada. What we do know is there are only ten espada. Shawlong said so and even Yammy confirmed that there are only ten espada just saying that the numbering goes from 0-9 as oppose to 1-10. My thinking is that Aizen considered "Starrk" to be the main identity of the Starrk-Lilynette pair and post release he is the dominant personality while Lilynette is just his guns. Which is why "Starrk" is the designated espada pre-release and get's a seat at the meeting table. Post-release the two become one and together become the primera espada. Pre-release Lilynette is an arrancar with special status, being an extension of Starrk. Tinni 11:01, September 22, 2009 (UTC)

Well I must say that these last two or three responses have given me a change of view. If Lilynette is a personified Zanpakuto (which she must be cuz he releases with her), then it would makes sense for Aizen not to consider her an Espada. However, all references to numerous and fraccion should be removed from her article because it just isn't canon, there is no evidence whatso ever for it. Ten Tailed Fox 15:20, September 22, 2009 (UTC)

I think we should just leave them both as the Primera because even Stark said he doesn't not what he looked like before now or even if he or Lilinette (excuse the spelling) is the dominating soul. All he said is that he split his soul in two so he does not have to be lonely anymore. With that said that makes her just as much the Primera than Stark Him self. Just because her voice comes form the gun doesn't mean that she is his zanpakuto or just a another espada. Tealang99 16:40, September 22, 2009 (UTC)

Hmmmm, that is a really good point. Ten Tailed Fox 18:11, September 22, 2009 (UTC)

Well, based on the newest chapter, where Lilynette tells Starrk that he is "just her," I would change my response based on this information to consider them the same being in two different bodies, thus making them both the Primera Espada. Twocents 18:00, September 25, 2009 (UTC)

lili is not an espada.she does not have an espada tattoo she was not adressed as an espada by aizen the man who hand picked and ranked the espada himself.she was not at the espada meeting were aizen adressed the 10 espada members.even if they were once one being they are not any more they have different names proven by the fact that when they first split thier soul he didnt even know who she was.and notice that while in thier release she isnt actually a part of him starrk is the dominant body while sheis just the guns.people think she is an espada just because of starrks quote but lili also said this to starrk "youre number 1 so act like it!why doyou think aizen made you number 1 its because he believes in your strenght" note that she said this while in thier release and if she were trully a member of the espada she would have said aizen us the primera.aizen is the only person who gets to choose who is in the espada.there is no such thing as an espada post release only.an espada is an espada pre and post release.yammy is both the 10and 0 espada because if he were an espada post release only then there would be only 9 members.also she is not a numeros.a numeros is a hogyoku created arrancar and itwas shown that she was natrully created.the primera rank only belongs to one person and that is starrk.unless kubo says otherwise.GrimGhost 22:24, November 23, 2009 (UTC)

When Los Lobos is released, TOGETHER Stark and Lilynette make up the Primera Espada. In one of the recent chapters (can't remeber which exactly) Stark says that they split into two beings coz they were lonely. She also says in a flashback that Stark came out of her, indicating that she was there first. —This unsigned comment is by Spleencheese (talk • contribs) . Please sign your posts with ~~~~!

I doubt she's only the first espada "post release only". Seeing as she is still his other half regardless if he's in his released form or not.Thunderwitch 20:10, December 31, 2009 (UTC)

This thread is closed. Please do not add to it.

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